Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


Italians back crucifix bid

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 09 November 2009
SOME 84 per cent of Italians oppose a ruling by the European Court of Human Rights that crucifixes should be removed from Italian classrooms, a poll has found.
The poll in the Corriere della Sera newspaper showed that just 14 per cent said they should be taken down.

Those in favour of them remaining included many who are not practising Catholics – 68 per cent of those who said they never attended Mass said they still wanted the crucifixes to stay.

Italy has said it would appeal the ruling, made last Tuesday in Strasbourg. Politicians from prime minister Silvio Berlusconi down said the crucifixes would stay because they are a part of Italy's Christian culture.





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 08 November 2009 10:31 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Alice Cooper,

09/11/2009 03:10:00
as a non catholic im glad the italians are up in arms over this
they are known world wide for being catholic and that the cross is very symbolic also
besides the pope lives there as well
i think we all know who started the moaning about crosses lol
well tough accept your new countries ways or ship out as they got told in australia
gid day bruce
2

Duncan in Edinburgh,

09/11/2009 08:17:20
#1 Actually I don't think "we all know" who complained. You are assuming it is immigrants who have objected. But why should anyone of any race have religious symbolism and beliefs forced upon them? We are all born atheists. Theism has to be taught. Why do we let successive generations be brainwashed?
3

Maximus,

Roberton 09/11/2009 08:30:26
@3, "We are all born atheists." Do you have any evidence for this?

I would suggest given the presence of religion and spirituality in our world - according to your theory - someone had to teach religion at some point in history.

Also don't forget that atheism is in the minority. Therefore to be atheist is an 'abnormal' human condition.
4

Duncan in Edinburgh,

09/11/2009 08:39:31
#3 How can we be born anything but atheist? Are you suggesting a newborn baby, without language, holds a belief in a God? I imagine you assume it is born with the same beliefs as its parents?

Think about it for a second. It's laughable to suggest anything other than we are all born atheists.

Of course theism is taught - that was my point. But nobody is born with an innate belief!

Your definition of abnormal is hilarious. By that same logic to be a man is an abnormal human condition - women are in the majority.
5

MMac,

Italy 09/11/2009 10:57:29
I think, in principle, it is a good idea to take the cross down; everyone is equal and no religion is presented as prevailing over others esp. in a school setting. That said, I have been living in Italy since 99 and I can confirm that we are overrun here with (esp. N. African/Arab) immigrants who are all seeking to affirm their religion/dress code etc. It is quite understandable that ordinary Italians (religious or not) are p'd off at having to take what is a relatively innocuous religious and cultural symbol down - all offices, schools etc. have always had this on the wall. All this, whilst having to accept predominantly muslim cultures, dress-codes etc in their society. I think that if they accept that the cross must come down - fine. But take the veil off too!
6

Duncan in Edinburgh,

09/11/2009 12:16:38
#5 Absolutely agree. France has it right on this.
7

Invictager,

Kent 09/11/2009 12:16:49
#2
It was by all accounts a Finnish woman named Soile Lautsi who had emmigrated to Italy who complained.

It would beggar belief to suggest she did not know Ital was a predominantly RC country before she chose to live there. She has the option to leave and go elsewhere if she does not like it.

It brings up the larger issue of why an indigenous society should change to suit a small minority of immigrants and why it has anything to do with the so called European Human Rights Court. Do the 90%+ of Italians have no rights

I hardly think a cross on a wall is brainwashing anyone in any case."When in Rome" has never been more apt.

The Italians should simply ignore this ridiculous ruling.
8

Duncan in Edinburgh,

09/11/2009 13:06:47
#7 You are wilfully confusing race with religion. You cannot say that a religion is indigenous, as you imply. Religions rise and fall, and the people living in the areas now making up modern Italy have had many religions over the centuries. Roman Catholicism is merely currently the most popular.

How do you think the Church of Rome came to be founded? By immigrants bringing their religious beliefs with them! (And by the purely politically motivated actions of an emperor seeking to keep his hold on power, as it happens.)

As I said, France has it right on this subject - no public displays of religion. No crosses, no veils, no bangles - nothing which serves to reinforce division. Treat all religious beliefs (and lack of them) equally. It is the only rational way to deal with irrational beliefs.
9

Invictager,

Kent 09/11/2009 13:22:55
#8
No confusion. My comment on that was under the "larger issue" I mentioned. I didn't mean it specifically for the cross issue

I feel the "west" in general has bent over backwards to accommodate the beliefs of everyone else and in the process has forgotten it's own people. You can respect the culture of others without giving their belief primacy over your own.

I am a firm believer in the idea that if you emmigrate you should respect the beliefs of the host country. Therefore if the majority of Italians want the crosses to stay who are we to disagree.
10

Duncan in Edinburgh,

09/11/2009 14:18:38
#9 It may be the case that a majority of Italians want the crucifixes to stay, but I have met plenty of Italians who have been campaigning against state sponsored religion for decades, so to suggest as you have that this is purely the result of immigrant opinion is quite untrue.

It's also far too simplistic to argue for majority rule when it suits you; such an approach would have meant very few of the popular reforms of the last two centuries would ever have happened.

There is nothing disrespectful in saying that an overt religious symbol, designed to enforce a particular irrational belief system, is an inappropriate feature of a classroom. Americans have been saying it for centuries, and the French have been saying it for decades.

If you truly believe in democracy, you should recognise that the RC church wants to impose its political aims on this democratic country, and you should rail against that imposition. Let the people decide indeed - not the priests!
11

Invictager,

Kent 09/11/2009 15:13:38
I was commenting based on the fact that the article stated 84% of Italians opposed the ruling not because it suits me.( not that I ever recall arguing against democracy when it didn't)

You claimed at#2 that you didn't think we all knew who complained when it was widely reported that it was the woman named. Whether or not yhou know Italians who disagree with the policy this case was brought by a woman who emmigrated there in the full knowledge that the country was the base of the RC church.

It's like people who buy a house at Heathrow then moan about the noise from aeroplanes.

As a Scottish presbyterian I hardly give a hoot about whether the RC church gets its own way or not. It's about the principal of a meddling organisation (EHCR)interfering in a domestic affair, that should have nothing to do with them, and overturning the will of the majority.
12

Invictager,

Kent 09/11/2009 15:15:28
*ECHR obviously
13

Duncan in Edinburgh,

09/11/2009 16:16:09
#11 My point was that you were suggesting that the fact that 84% of Italians thought something made it right. A lot more than 84% of Americans thought slavery was right once upon a time. Didn't make it so.

As for meddling organisations interfering in a domestic affair, isn't that precisely what the Catholic church is doing in Italy?
14

Age of Reason,

Aberdeen 09/11/2009 17:15:16
Is it about the Cross or the Crucifix. I personally (presbyterian upbringing, no idolatry) associate the Cross with christianity and its widely applicable beneficient principles, and the Crucifix, with the doctrinaire attitude of the Roman Church.
Given that the Italian mandatory exhibition of the Crucifix in schools was only introduced by the Fascists in the 20s, I think there is no basis at all for continuing such a law in a secular state, especially one in which we must encourage multireligious common education

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
RSS Feed of this article's comments
Delivery formats: RSS, Atom, Javascript & Email
 
  

 
 


Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.