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Miliband slates SA failure to recognise Zimbabwe's crisis



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Published Date: 07 July 2008
DAVID Miliband, the Foreign Secretary, visiting South Africa for talks on the Zimbabwe crisis ahead of the G8 summit in Japan, yesterday started a political row with the president, Thabo Mbeki.
Mr Mbeki has resolutely asserted that there is no crisis in Zimbabwe. But Mr Miliband publicly demonstrated the British government's stark differences with Mr Mbeki by visiting some of the three million refugees who have fled into South Africa from Robert Mugabe's terror campaign – something Mr Mbeki has refused to do, describing the fugitives not as "refugees" but as "temporary shelterers."

Mr Mbeki, whose eight years of "quiet diplomacy" in Zimbabwe on behalf of the African Union (AU) and the Southern African Development Community have come to nothing, returned from yet another failed negotiation in Zimbabwe with his lieutenants blaming Britain for the breakdown.

Mr Mbeki had flown to Harare for an anticipated meeting between Mr Mugabe and opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai. However, Mr Tsvangirai boycotted the meeting, saying Mr Mbeki could no longer be trusted and that a new mediation mechanism needs to be established to tackle the Zimbabwe crisis.

Mr Tsvangirai's refusal to engage with Mr Mbeki is a massive blow for the South African head of state, who wanted to arrive at the G8 summit today claiming a major Zimbabwe breakthrough to his credit.

In off-the-record briefings, Mr Mbeki's closest aides attacked Britain and the United States, alleging that their governments had advised Mr Tsvangirai to snub both Mr Mugabe and Mr Mbeki.

A spokesman for Mr Tsvangirai's Movement for Democratic Change (MDC), George Sibotshiswe, said the AU must appoint a permanent mediator to work with Mr Mugabe and declared the party would not attend any meeting designed to give legitimacy to Mr Mugabe's presidency.

He said: "We are concerned that people might have wanted to use the meeting to show the G8 that progress was being made in Zimbabwe when there is no progress."

At Johannesburg's Central Methodist Church, where 2,000 Zimbabwean refugees have found protection, Mr Miliband was visibly overcome by the plight of the people. Amid the stench of unwashed bodies in a building where people are camped head-to-toe on stairwells and in passages, doorways, offices and other rooms, including the vestry, the Foreign Secretary said: "No-one who meets the people here could do anything other than redouble their efforts to secure international consensus that the Mugabe regime is not a legitimate representation of the will of the people of Zimbabwe.

"It is imperative that a government be formed with respect to the 29 March (election] result because this is now a crisis, and it's affecting the whole of southern Africa."

Mr Miliband said the international community should "unite behind a tough, strong, clear UN Security Council resolution" calling for international sanctions against Mugabe.

"I've seen the human toll and the human face of the catastrophe, and it calls for a clear mix of diplomacy and sanctions," he said.

Even though voting was heavily rigged in his favour, Mr Mugabe lost the 29 March first round presidential poll to Mr Tsvangirai, obtaining only 43.2 per cent of the national votes cast to the 47.9 per cent of his rival.

Mr Tsvangirai needed an absolute majority of at least 50 per cent plus one vote to avoid a run-off election.

Mr Mugabe and his generals then launched a reign of terror in which more than 100 opposition supporters have so far been killed with about 1,500 listed as missing.

Mr Tsvangirai withdrew from the 27 June run-off poll to save his supporters from further violence.

Mr Mugabe ran unopposed and proclaimed himself re-elected, which means he will rule until he is in his 90th year.

WHAT'S NEXT

THABO Mbeki, a guest speaker at the G8 summit at Lake Toya, is expected to demand that the United States, Japan, Germany, Britain, France, Canada, Italy and Russia fulfil pledges, made at Gleneagles in 2005, to increase aid to Africa to $25 billion (£12.5 million) a year by 2010.

They are certain to condemn Zimbabwe's run-off election as a sham following violence against supporters of the opposition Movement for Democratic Change (MDC).

Mr Mbeki, reported to be a close personal friend of Robert Mugabe, faces further embarrassment for failing to broker a mediation deal between Mugabe and the MDC leader, Morgan Tsvangirai.

He is certain to receive a frosty reception if he refuses to endorse international moves to tighten sanctions against Mugabe and his government.

Mr Mbeki, the South African president, is due to step down at the country's general election next year.

The full article contains 778 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 06 July 2008 9:51 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Zimbabwe
 
1

Silence of the Yams,

07/07/2008 01:20:48
Mbeki is a clown pair of shoes. This country should not get NO World Cup if they can't condemn a beast and criminal like Mugabe on their own doorstep! Shame and disgrace!
2

Scullion,

Canada 07/07/2008 02:26:25
If not for Nigeria's oil and the geographically important horn of Africa, the west would not care one iota about Africa. Rwanda and Burundi, Uganda and even the farcical democracy that is Egypt all escape our notice on a continuous basis.
Africa's democracies, which were in full flower a decade ago, are now crumbling at a fantastic rate. I feel that we make special note of Zimbabwe due to our collective personal dislike of Mugabe and his nasty treatment of whites. But quick, which African leader ordered gays out of his country or he'd behead them? Not newsworthy enough?
Let's help them all or forget them all.
3

Paul in Oz,

Helensburgh 07/07/2008 05:05:17
Mbeki is prize prat for his failure to recognise what is happening in Zimbabwe.

Not matter your opinion on colonialism and its vageries, what that Mugabe has done in the last ten years is criminal the guy needs brought to justice for the genocide he has caused.

I applaud whatever the UK government is doing to try and effect change in that country, just a pity other countries (SA) feel it is ok to turn a blind eye to this crisis in the name of 'black power'

4

Pilrig.,

Livingston 07/07/2008 05:58:53
1 - FIFA beg to differ, and it's they and not ephemeral politicians who decide.
5

Itchy,

07/07/2008 06:34:33
"Mr Mbeki has resolutely asserted that there is no crisis in Zimbabwe"

That is because he is evil, dishonest and stupid.

"I feel that we make special note of Zimbabwe due to our collective personal dislike of Mugabe and his nasty treatment of whites"

And so are you.
6

Media 1,

cape town 07/07/2008 07:38:14
YESTERDAY afternoon at the popular Lion Park in Johannesburg,8 armed black men stormed the restaurant and proceeded to rob all the patrons of their personal belongings. On the way out they shot and killed a man who happened to be standing in their way. On Friday night I know of a family who were attacked in their drive way by 3 black men who proceeded to tie them up, rape the women and shoot the father before fleeing the scene with a cell phone and a wallet. On Saturday an armed gang attacked a cash in transit van and opened fire on the drivers. That is the 50th attack on such vans in the last 2 months. Mbeki says crime is a perception, he also says AIDS is not actually real and that there is no crisis in Zimbabwe.
The man is a fool,we all know that!
But the refusal to accept the West' condemnation comes from Afican faliure. The truth hurts, end of story.
7

Erchie Broon,

07/07/2008 09:57:52
#4 Pilrig
Take note of Media 1's post.Similar murders happen 50 times a day in South Africa not to mention the violent attacks and assaults and a woman raped every 3 minutes. That is sufficient reason for Politicians to interfere having regard for the safety of their citizens who may be foolish enough to believe the lies of Mbeki and visit there.
As regards Zimbabwe, clearly the British Foreign Office is exploiting the differences of opinion within the ANC and the general opinion of the Public in South Africa. Broon needs to go the extra mile and tell Mbeki he is a deluded fool and that the UK will no longer tolerate his denialism on Zimbabwe.Mbeki is arrogant enough to believe he has the solutions to everything but the truth is that he has overseen the demise of South Africa into a crime ridden,racist cesspit. His use of euphemisms for White South Africans is legendary and he has openly promoted and legislated for discrimination against them.
It is time for Broon to stop pretending that Africans can act democratically and govern themselves in an acceptable manner. They cant as has been shown from top to bottom and tolerating the demonic views of an imbecile such as Mbeki will only see another package of EU assistance to resurrect South Africa in a few years down the line.
8

oder,

Scotland 07/07/2008 10:20:28
"Unity in Stupidity" should be the motto of Black African leaders! it is highly unlikely the Mbeki will do anything! Mbeki`s wife`s sister or cousin is married to Mugabe, world politicians need to get a grip and start paying attention, Africans under no circumstances will help remove a dictator, since they are all dictators! the only real country of any importance is South Africa!
remove the world cup! it was a political decision to give it to SA in the first place a grave mistake(which the crime figures will show if its allowed to go ahead.)
full scale diplomatic,economic,cultural,military sanctions.
If you want to sort out Mugabe! you need the the key!
Mbeki is the key like Voster was to Rhodesia when he turned the key Ian Smith was forced to settle.
9

Anton in SAfrica,

Cape Town 07/07/2008 10:45:02
White Rhodesians and White South Africans were never defeated in any of the battles with the Marxist backed "freedom fighters". Rhodesia succumbed to Western liberal pressure to accept majority rule. Which in an African context is the rule of the largest tribe it that country. South African, also under pressure, decided as an act of goodwill to share power with the majority of the population. Again this deteriorated into "majority" rule by the most populous South African tribe, the Xhosa. Now humorously known here as the "Xhosa Nostra".

White people are now, ever so so sorry to have shared power voluntarily and with much goodwill too, because the world wide condemnation and sanctions are a mere trifle compared to the the mis-rule of these bitter fools.

I would like to know how Europeans would feel if they were forced to be ruled by the most populous nation in the EU because they were condemned into not accepting "majority rule". Germans would then rule Europe - maybe not so bad compared to an African ruler or if Russia was part of the EU then by them - now "majority rule" may not be quite so attractive anymore !
10

Queen D,

Glasgow 07/07/2008 11:11:40
I read somewhere about the NEW BRITISH EMBASSY in HARARE about to reach completion at a cost of TEN MILLION QUID.
Can anyone verify this?

If true , it shows just how much interest this Government has in Mugabe , desptie the fine words.
11

Queen D,

Glasgow 07/07/2008 11:12:08
oops! Despite!
12

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 07/07/2008 12:18:40
Mbeki is a wimp, a sissy, a liar, a denier of the facts, and a failure as leader of South Africa.

IF he is a friend of Mugabe, there is an old saying, "You are judged by the friends you keep."

Why don't South Africans wake up and get rid of that waste of space called Mbeki.
13

The Spook in Leith,

07/07/2008 12:19:25
Mugabe , brown , they are both despised by the majority of citizens in both countries
14

The Spook in Leith,

07/07/2008 12:24:16
#6 Media 1

Thanks for that incite into your neighbourhood, if its all so bad for poor little white supremacist why dont you move back to your legendary Stockbridge ??

BTW a black man might become the most powerful person on the planet ( i don't support him in fact he is rotten ) but i would love to see your pale white mug if he won.. (Im a clinton fan)
15

Media 1,

cape town 07/07/2008 12:26:19
You need to try and understand Mbeki's position as well as his mindset. There are many truly great people in this world. Some are white, some are black, some are Oriental or Asian, no one race group has a monopoly on intelligence, WE ARE ALL EQUALLY capable of succeeding at whatever we put our minds to.
However, what we have seen around the world in its different places is how different societies live, advance, dont advance, build, dont build etc etc.
It has come to our attention in the last 500 odd years that white people, oriental people and Asian people are all pretty much capable of advancing and that can be seen in their nations approach to development and governance. Take Japan, South Korea, Hong Kong, Europe, Dubai etc and then look at Africa. NOT ONE success story, not one.
War, famine, coup after bloody coup, foreign aid on an annual basis, dictators, despots, crime in SA, incomeptent members of parliament and never ending chaos.
So when Mbeki takes Mugabe's side and blames the UK for what is happening as opposed to slating Mugabe, you must remeber that he does so as a sorry black man who cannot stand to be reminded how pathetic he and this continent are.
Some leader, like Botswana's hold no resentment, they accept that the west and other parts of the world have been more responsible and more inclined to succeed than AFRICANS have, and so they in Botswana want to emulate this success by behaving in a manner appropriate of civilised nations. And so Botswana with no chip on her shoulder progresses whilst those around them rapidly regress at the hands of useless racist fools.
16

Anton in SAfrica,

Cape Town 07/07/2008 12:33:29
"Why don't South Africans wake up and get rid of that waste of space called Mbeki."

Some of us would like to, but we are not in the majority. Western PC liberals wanted mindless African majority "rule".

I even heard one lady in Zimbabwe say that she is going to vote for Robert Mugabe again, because "he got them into this mess and he must get them out" ! Rational logical thinking does not always work in the tragic comedy of tribal Africa.
17

Media 1,

cape town 07/07/2008 12:38:04
Spook in leith

I am not a Clinton fan. I hope Obama wins because the thought of America in the hands of another Bush type rogue scares me. Obama will do a great job, so lets hope he wins it, for all our sakes.

I would not say that life is bad for me here, not at all. We live fantastic lives and the sun shines most of the time...But the truth is that the country is now in total decline in almost all areas of society, which is not that serious for me I guess because when the wheels come off I can leave for Australia, but what about the masses?
A man was shot dead yesterday at the Lion Park..DEAD! For sitting in a restaurant having lunch with his family. 500 000 rapes per annum, read it again. HALF A MILLION RAPES PER ANNUM. Our electricity is off all the time, whereas it used to never be off. Our once pristine and wonderfully manecured suburbs were safe, whereas now they are becomming littered and chaotic. Our roads used to be good, they are now falling apart, our schools were safe, they are now dangerous and unsafe. There used to be almost no murder, now it is 45 000 per annum.
The ministers are all inompetent fools, our President supports a tyrant and says that aids isnt real.
And here you are calling me a racist or a supremist for pointing out the failures of a race who cant seem to do things right.
It is time for change in Africa, this cannot be allowed to continue.
18

Gere,

Scotland 07/07/2008 14:06:04
It becomes increasingly clear why a certain group of people migrated from Africa some 40,000 years ago to seek another part of the planet where they could further extend their evolutionary progress in peace!

How fortunate my ancestors were among them!
19

Lost in Africa ,

07/07/2008 14:17:23
Media 1 It still amazes me that African leaders behave as if the rest of the world can't see what is happening in their country. They get away with it because western leaders don't want to be seen as racist by stating the obvious. Black African leaders with the exception on Mandela are thieves who are incapable of democracy. How much longer must the west bail out African countries. The oil money stolen by Nigerian leaders far exceeds the money suposedly extracted by Britain during the colonial era in the whole of Africa.
20

elizabeth the first ,

07/07/2008 14:20:21
Mbeki is either blind or a fool,either way he should be sacked,South Africa is better than that clown.
21

Gulliver,

Harare 07/07/2008 14:49:12
Another headline on this site is, "G8 removed from the real world". This shows the real problem that many world leaders experience, key decision-makers who appear to not have a clue on what is going on in the world. This classic example shows how unfortunate it is that most people have their impressions about President Mugabe as painted by a biased and racist media, which has led a sustained onslaught to discredit him and the government of Zimbabwe. Most people who comment the loudest about Zimbabwe have never been to Zimbabwe and many couldn't find it on a map! President Mbeki understands quite well the going's on in his neigbouring country Zimbabwe (much better than those abroad). His frequent visits to Zimbabwe (at least 3 in the last 2 months by a head of state!!) and one-on-one dialogue clearly show that Zimbabwe is in a "crisis". It's the actions that matter and not mere semantics. He is doing a sterling job - he clearly understands his role as a facilitator NOT A PREFECT.

I live in Zimbabwe and am daily faced with acute shortages of water, electricity, food , not only that but I have to contend with hyperinflation at over 4million percent!! Whilst clearly the violence (inter-party) in Zimbabwe is an obvious dent on our country, and the hardships we face daily are a source of discontent, we cannot help but support President Mugabe because of his demonstrated will to serve the people of Zimbabwe and work tirelessly for their upliftment. The biased media has never reported that President Mugabe aimed to fight poverty and address colonial imbalances through the Land Reform exercise. He is also the only leader in Africa who has overseen the acquisition and massive distribution farm equipment (tractors, combine harvesters, animal drawn implements, etc.) to beneficiaries of the Land Reform exercise. They conveniently ignore that he has helped formulate an Indigenisation Bill that will see many Zimbabweans benefit from their country's natural resources in a bigg
22

elizabeth the first ,

07/07/2008 15:09:13
21. SAYS THE MAN WITH A GUN TO HIS HEAD!
23

Media 1,

cape town 07/07/2008 15:11:52
Gulliver

I have been to Zimbabwe on many occassions and here is how I see it.
The West has nothing to gain if Mugabe is ousted, they couldnt care less, they just need to be seen saying the politically correct thing. If the West wanted him out they would take him out, end of story.
You say that there is racist media against Mugabe, which is of course nonsense. Almost every story I read about Mugabe in South African newspapers are written by black journalists. Archbishop Desmond Tutu has even asked Mugabe to leave office, hardly a racist point of view, but of course any criticism aimed at a black man be discriminatory, it can never be what it actually is and that is "honest assessment"
Mugabe has been a disaster for Zimbabwe, had he been successful then you would have running water, like all responsible nations have. You would have electricity, you would have infrastructure and a booming economy, there would be no inflation, no food shortages and no aggrevation during election time. Mugabe failed because he is an African with no clue. And Mbeki supports him because that is the African way. End of story, Zimbabwe is a disaster.
24

elizabeth the first ,

07/07/2008 15:22:31
23.It's bordering on geniside
25

Itchy,

07/07/2008 15:27:43
#21 "I live in Zimbabwe and am daily faced with acute shortages of water, electricity, food , not only that but I have to contend with hyperinflation at over 4million percent!! Whilst clearly the violence (inter-party) in Zimbabwe is an obvious dent on our country, and the hardships we face daily are a source of discontent, we cannot help but support President Mugabe because of his demonstrated will to serve the people of Zimbabwe and work tirelessly for their upliftment. The biased media has never reported that President Mugabe aimed to fight poverty and address colonial imbalances through the Land Reform exercise. "

You are an idiot and Mugabe has wrecked your life by imposing Marxist-Leninism on you. If Mugabe's aim was to fight poverty then he has acheived the inverse of his goal.
26

Itchy,

07/07/2008 15:28:15
#23 Plus Mbeki supports Mugabe because they are both Marxists.
27

Gulliver,

Harare 07/07/2008 15:52:01
Media 1.

How many African countries which inherited colonial economies that were designed to sustain only an elite class today are able to run effectively without foreign aid? How many governments could pursue social and economic programs that would see the improvement of living standards in an all encompassing dispensation without assistance? This is the challenge in Zimbabwe faces and Mbeki correctly analyzed the reasons behind Mugabe's "failure". Mugabe's true failure is that he pursued an ambitious plan to uplift formerly marginalised Zimbabweans at a cost he could not sustain alone. On top of that he followed advice from the IMF and World Bank to follow ESAP, and to sell-off the country's grain reserves to repay foreign debts in the mid 90s, a position from which Zimbabwe has never fully recovered. The man built over 10 universities in 22 years where the colonial masters built only 1 in 90 years!!! The man has overseen the building of thousands of schools to educate the less previleged, each province in the country has a major dam, and he has aimed for the establishment of clinics within a 15km radius in the rural areas. All this development could not be financed from the normal fiscus and Thabo Mbeki is one person who has taken the time to understand how all these factors have resulted in the situation which we now have. I agree, corruption (estimated at almost 2bn USD per year) and other corporate governance shortcomings have had their play, but the truth of the matter is that Mugabe has failed largely to the extent that he placed too much faith in foreign aid to develop the country. Before the Land Reform and empowerment drive he was a British Knight, with honorary degrees from Briatin and America. He did not realize that the moment he struck the wrong cord those with an imperialist agenda he would have the rug pulled from underneath him.
28

Gulliver,

Harare 07/07/2008 15:53:24
Media 1.

How many African countries which inherited colonial economies that were designed to sustain only an elite class today are able to run effectively without foreign aid? How many governments could pursue social and economic programs that would see the improvement of living standards in an all encompassing dispensation without assistance? This is the challenge in Zimbabwe faces and Mbeki correctly analyzed the reasons behind Mugabe's "failure". Mugabe's true failure is that he pursued an ambitious plan to uplift formerly marginalised Zimbabweans at a cost he could not sustain alone. On top of that he followed advice from the IMF and World Bank to follow ESAP, and to sell-off the country's grain reserves to repay foreign debts in the mid 90s, a position from which Zimbabwe has never fully recovered. The man built over 10 universities in 22 years where the colonial masters built only 1 in 90 years!!! The man has overseen the building of thousands of schools to educate the less previleged, each province in the country has a major dam, and he has aimed for the establishment of clinics within a 15km radius in the rural areas. All this development could not be financed from the normal fiscus and Thabo Mbeki is one person who has taken the time to understand how all these factors have resulted in the situation which we now have. I agree, corruption (estimated at almost 2bn USD per year) and other corporate governance shortcomings have had their play, but the truth of the matter is that Mugabe has failed largely to the extent that he placed too much faith in foreign aid to develop the country. Before the Land Reform and empowerment drive he was a British Knight, with honorary degrees from Briatin and America. He did not realize that the moment he struck the wrong cord those with an imperialist agenda he would have the rug pulled from underneath him.
29

Gulliver,

Harare 07/07/2008 16:09:04
Itchy

Sorry mate, no amount of name-calling and villifying anyone will result in the kind of change that you want.

It is immoral that the people of the Niger Delta live in abject poverty whilst foreign owned companies benefit from the multi-billion dollar carbon industry that should be shared with the Nigerians. These guys are the 4th largest exporter to the US and yet they actually experience fuel shortages in their own country!!! If acknowledging that things like that need redressing (similar to the Zimbabwean scenario) is Marxism or Lennism then you are right I am 100% Lennist or whatever. The reality is that unless people come together to seek sustainable long-term solution to these genuine socio-economic problems then we will continue to witness the frequent kidnappings and sabotage of pipelines not only in Nigeria but wherever in the developing world where such injustices exist. This is why Zimbabwe is of interest to many influential people, its not so much about the chrome the country exports to the US Pentagon (which interestingly wants to impose military linked sanctions), and the platinum, it's about the influence Zimbabwe could have on the interests of powerful companies around the world. It is ironic that people are prepared to make noise about democracy, good governance and the death of about 100 lives (not to say I support any murders) in Zimbabwe and fail to even whisper about the death of thousands in Somalia (2100 or so since November 2007)!
30

Lost in Africa ,

07/07/2008 16:09:51
21 Whose fault is it then? I suppose its the white mans fault because he left you a country with food growing and an economy in better condition than any other.
Idiot you deserve it if thats your way of thinking. You just listed all that is wrong in your country.
31

munhumutapa,

harare 07/07/2008 16:12:29
Gulliver @21: To suggest that Mugabe has fought for the upliftment of black people and Mbeki is more qualified to comment on the Zim situation is being naive at best and downright deluded at worst.

If Mugabe really cared about zimbabweans, democracy would have been in place the day he got into office, which is a powerful tool to give to people. But because he wants to rule with an iron fist he denies you that priviledge, inevitably suppressing and oppressing you.

The only black people benefitting from mugabes policies are his cronies and a few top official zanu apologetics.

For the record i live in zim and know what is goin on
32

Media 1,

cape town 07/07/2008 16:20:04
Gulliver

There is no point in discussing Africa, the continent speaks for itself.
North to South and East to West there is mass destruction, massive hunger and displacement. Hardly any of the leaders are politically competent, most are nothing more than freedom fighting liberation madmen who lost their way once they came to power.
So Mugabe built more universities than the colonial powers, but Europeans have designed, manufactured and invented more cars, technology and infrastructure in one European city than all of Africa put togeter, so I am not sure what your comment about universities means. You make it sound as if the colonial masters were at liberty to build universities for everyone.
There is no escaping the wrongs of apartheid, IT WAS a shocking system. But it is not to blame for the massive unemployment and hyper inflation in Zimbabwe nor does it permit Mugabe to steal election after election.
HE LOST the election yet he is still in power! That alone is testament to his lack of consideration for Zimbabwe and its people. But thankfully the old monster will soon be gone and Zimbabwe will be in the hands of the Europeans and the British again in terms of her growth through investment.
So Mugabe, if you or one of your equally stupid henchmen happen to come across this post, please note that it wont be long until you are all done with. Zimbabwe WILL recover from her slumber and she WILL invite British and American business. And then her people WILL prosper, because Britain and America are capable of feeding the people of Zimbabwe, whereas old man idiot bob is not.
33

Media 1,

cape town 07/07/2008 16:30:35
It is quite simple!
Once upon a time there was equality, but it was inevitable that would change. Men a women lived in Southern Africa without knowing about men and women in Europe, but then one day that all changed and the rest as they say is history.
The people who built the ships and invented the technology first were always going to rule the roost, it is that simple. It was a race without anyone knowing it was a race, and one team won it as only one team could win it.That is what happened, and whether right or wrong it cannot be changed
34

Anton in SAfrica,

Cape Town 07/07/2008 17:29:36
Idiocracy in Africa:

Western democracy is not a great system in Africa or anywhere in the world really, because the wisest choices of leader by the wisest portion of the electorate, are nullified by the opposite choices, of the overwhelmingly large proportion of simpletons, in any country. So the country with the wisest people in the world are doomed, to only a slightly above mediocre political leader. In Africa the proportion of base simpletons is so much greater in every country, than the world average, that we tend to be ruled by politicians of above average stupidity, yet with sufficient guile to continue to maintain dominion over the majority of simpletons they "rule" and hence through sheer force of numbers, quench the spirit of all.

I feel sorry for the African exceptions, in every field they try to achieve, because their skills and contributions are constantly dishonoured by their under-achieving, jealous and parasitic brethren.
35

Anton in SAfrica,

Cape Town 07/07/2008 17:56:16
The biggest cause of failure in Africa which is probably not obvious to the western observer is spiritual.

Many Africans worship their ancestors. This dooms one to a complete cycle of failure. This means that the god of the ancestral worshipper is to worship those that have died and failed before them. In the ancestral rituals, he calls upon his failed ancestors to give him wisdom and when this "wisdom" eventually causes his own death, then his descendants after him, appeal to him, who was a bigger failure than his father before him, to help them. Here again in this downward spiral of failure, Africa cannot rise unless they decide to renounce this practice.

For most people, even when worshiping the successful Creator himself, it is difficult to walk in the wisdom that He gives, even when you know what it is.
36

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 07/07/2008 18:22:29
28/29 gulliver
For how long can you keep blaming the problems on former colonial powers and western companies. There are literally dozens of countries throughout the world who have become independent from formal colonial powers in the last 30/40 years. How many of them have the hyperinflation and shortages experienced by Zimbabwe?
37

barbour,

The perfect city 07/07/2008 19:32:23
#31
It's great pity that the Selous Scouts were disbanded by the white liberals (British)they performed well in all areas of "unrest"but Mugabe was the "Great black hope" of the UK politicians,don't hear much from them now and no need for the likes of the scouts.The problem in Zim would have been solved a long time ago
38

Itchy,

07/07/2008 20:44:28
#2 "The reality is that unless people come together to seek sustainable long-term solution to these genuine socio-economic problems then we will continue to witness the frequent kidnappings and sabotage of pipelines not only in Nigeria but wherever in the developing world where such injustices exist"

The reality is that Robert Mugabe has launched war on the producers of food and, hence, has made the people starve. He has printed money by the ton and, not surprisingly, the currency has collapsed. He placed price controls on the economy and forced people to trade at a loss. They went out of business.

Given that you support all of this and openly admit to being a Marxist-Leninist, you deserve all you get.

Marxist-Leninism was genocidal in Russia and is already proving so in Zimbabwe.

BTW, I'm very well informed about Zimbabwe. My mate is black and Zimbabwean and still has relatives there who he fears for.
39

yockel,

07/07/2008 21:12:52
Interesting thread, we could do with more of these.
40

Pilrig.,

Livingston 08/07/2008 05:56:16
7 you want a return of apartheid ?

Once again Mkebi's attitude towards Zimbabwe WONT influence whether SA get the next World Cup one whit.
41

Pilrig.,

Livingston 08/07/2008 06:00:37
48 In peace ? Wake up Rip van Winkle - you missed the 20th century !
42

Pilrig.,

Livingston 08/07/2008 06:01:33
9 that wicked Marxist Thatcher was to blame
43

Anton in SAfrica,

C 08/07/2008 07:23:31
42

No Margaret came in at the tail end of the affair! The sustained pressure of self-loathing white liberals are really the most culpable. These are mostly people who contribute least to the economies of the countries that they come from and because they have nothing better to do, end up with a disproportional political representation of the countries that they live in. These people would normally end up as vagrants in countries that do not support socialist parasites.
44

Gulliver,

Harare 08/07/2008 09:09:17
Good morning all.

I hadn't responded to Media 1's excellent observation that a lot of negative publicity about President Mugabe and Zimbabwe has in fact come from African journalists and mentioned African icons like Arch Bishop Desmond Tutu. Those are indeed very good observations, and I must say that when people are being killed there is no real excuse to condone anything of that nature.

Nevertheless, it should also be noted that although many Africans have been liberated from the yoke of colonialism many still carry the yoke in their minds. They still believe that somehow causcasians and people of other races are superior to them. They believe that villifying and denigrating their leaders (so that the west applauds, maybe if they are lucky- get a pat on the back or better still gives them awards!) is what constitutes good journalism. Another factor we cannot run away from is that the historical ownership patterns of many media houses still reflect the interests of the previous owners (e.g. South Africa's Argus Newspapers now Independent Newspapers- formerly owned by JCI through Anglo-America) despite there having being changes in that ownership.

HOWEVER, The fact is Zimbabweans should not give opportunity to any such evil (senseless beatings and murders) and then complain when people make noise about it. Zimbabweans should take full responsibility and take charge of their destiny!

As for my fellow munhumutapa (great name of the once powerful occupants of Zimbabwe who had a thriving gold trade with the Portugese and who built the palace we now call the Great Zimbabwe!), I agree with you to some extent that things have not gone as planned with some beneficiaries of certain programs not deserving. However, remember that because someone is President Mugabe's friend does not automatically mean that person SHOULD NOT benefit from any exercise meant to uplift Zimbabweans. It should also be noted that it would have been awkward for the MDC leaders to come out
45

Gulliver,

Harare 08/07/2008 09:42:20
.. it would have been very awkward for the MDC MPs to want to openly participate in Land Reform when their primary sponsors (former caucasian Rhodesian farmers) and the British government where set them up for the very purpose of opposing such reform!
46

Lost in Africa ,

08/07/2008 12:21:33
'former caucasian Rhodesian farmers'. Are these the ones who through hard work and a love of the nation fed not just Zim but suroounding countries, and employed hundreds of thousands blacks giving them access to health care which your government has forgotten.
47

Gulliver,

Harare 08/07/2008 13:44:25
Are Zimbabweans supposed to be grateful for having been colonised and having been forced to work on settler farms because it gave them "employment"?? I think Zimbabweans deserve much better than being mere employees in their own land! Bear in mind that by 1999 over 70% of the country's maize was actually grown by small-holder farmers. The cause of food shortages Zim has experienced as a country can be traced to years of consecutive droughts and lack of inputs such as seed and fertilizer. Farm disruptions are also a factor, but not to the extent that you want to make us believe. The pricing system that Itchy mentions is also another genuine factor (good point there mate). These are the issues that need resolving. That being said, I would like to add that not all caucasians are racist and I am personally grateful to great British sons like Dr. T. Stamps who have genuinely worked for the improvement in living conditions for Zimbabweans particularly in health care. Such people are always welcome.
48

Gulliver,

Harare 08/07/2008 14:05:30
I believe there is a spiritual element to Zim's issues, much similar to what was happening when Esau despised his birthright for a bowl of soup (temporal gain) and like when Moses led the children of Israel out of Egypt where they had been enslaved. When faced with the test of the desert some of them cried out, "It would have been better had you left us in Egypt where we could have bread and food.." Naturally, if the Egyptians were allowed to blog back then they would have passed many comments similar to ones we are hearing here, "Moses are you serious you would rather take your people out of Egypt where there was plenty and lead them into a desert to starve where there is no food, no water, no decent shelter!? What because you have promised them freedom in some far away land". God is allowing us to walk this difficult path as a nation for a purpose He has determined.
49

Gulliver,

Harare 08/07/2008 14:18:57
Thank you for allowing me to partipate and air my views on this forum. It has certainly been enlightening as much as it has been fun. It's good to exchange ideas with those who have different views, and though the occassional name-calling and a few offensive statements here and there sometimes subdued the spirit of the dialogue I guess it is the existence of those negative elements that made the exchanges more real. Let's hope that with time the quality of the dicussions will improve with more exchange of factual information as opposed to sentimental discourse. The freedom to express diverse ideas and the ability to agree to disagree are some of the key foundations of democracy. Democracy is not a destination, it is process, some have likened it to a journey. As human beings we have the potential to rise above race, colour, religion and solve genuine problems with teamwork. Cheerio
50

Itchy,

08/07/2008 20:18:44
#49"The freedom to express diverse ideas and the ability to agree to disagree are some of the key foundations of democracy"

Lots of diversity in Zimbabwe at the moment.

You have clearly got the IQ of an Irn Bru can and do not know the meaning of words.

"Are Zimbabweans supposed to be grateful for having been colonised and having been forced to work on settler farms because it gave them "employment"?? "

Yes, they are. especially as unemployment is now 90% in Zimbabwe and the people are starving in what was once the breadbasket of Africa.

Obviously you don't like working for a living and you don't like eating.
51

Itchy,

08/07/2008 20:23:29
#51 "God is allowing us to walk this difficult path as a nation for a purpose He has determined."

Weimar Germany had similar hyperinflation to Zimbabwe. Who was it who attempted a putsch as the currency collapsed? Who gained power ten years later when the economy was wrecked again? And note that the Weimar Germans had several Marxist parties.

Only a man with no capacity for independent thought and who resorts to blind faith can hope that Zimbabwe is going anywhere but down the plughole under Mugabe.

Not once were you able to refute my conclusive proof that Mugabe's Marxist regime is the problem and not the solution and you are reduced to talking gibberish.

 

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