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The fall of the Berlin Wall: 'That night, you couldn't stop the people'

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Published Date: 10 November 2009
THOUSANDS of cheering Germans re-enacted the moment the Berlin Wall came down 20 years ago – toppling 1,000 huge graffiti-adorned dominoes that tumbled past the Brandenburg Gate in the heart of the capital.
Last night's spectacle – billed by organisers as a metaphor for the way the real Cold War icon came down and resulted in the fall of communist countries in eastern Europe – was the finale after a series of memorial services, speeches and events marking the anniversary.

"Looking back, we can see many causes that led to the peaceful revolution, but it still remains a miracle," German president Horst Koehler told the leaders of all 27 European Union countries, including Prime Minister Gordon Brown along with Russian president Dmitry Medvedev and US Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, who were invited to attend the ceremony.

Angela Merkel – Germany's first chancellor to be raised in the former communist east – called the events of 9 November, 1989, an "epic" moment.

"For me, it was one of the happiest moments of my life," Ms Merkel told a crowd of tens of thousands packed around the Brandenburg Gate.

In a video message screened at the main event, US president Barack Obama paid tribute to the dissidents and demonstrators who ushered in the fall of the wall 20 years ago.

"Let us never forget 9 November, 1989, nor the sacrifices that made it possible," Mr Obama said to applause and cheers.

Mr Brown insisted the tide of history was moving towards our "best hopes".

The Prime Minister said the events of 1989 showed that "no abuse, no crime, no injury need endure for ever".

Mr Brown told the crowds: "This wall was torn down not by the demands of political leaders, not by diktat from on high, not by the force of military might, but by the greatest force of all: the unbreakable spirit of the men and women of Berlin.

"You dared to dream in the darkness. You knew that while force has the temporary power to dominate, it can never ultimately dictate.

"You proved there is nothing that cannot be achieved by people inspired by the power of common purpose."

Mr Brown went on: "Let me thank you, the people of Berlin, for showing that in a troubled world with an Africa in poverty, and a Darfur in agony, a Zimbabwe in tears and a Burma in chains, individuals even when in pain need not suffer forever without hope …

"What has happened here in Berlin tells the world that the tides of history may ebb and flow, but that across the ages history is moving towards our best hopes, not our worst fears; towards light not darkness; and towards the fulfilment of our humanity, not its denial."

Chancellor Merkel also recalled the tragic side of 9 November for Germans – the Nazi's Kristallnacht, or Night of Broken Glass – an anti-Semitic pogrom 71 years ago.

At least 91 German Jews were killed, hundreds of synagogues destroyed, and thousands of Jewish businesses vandalised and looted in the state-sanctioned riots that night.

"Both show that freedom is not self evident," Ms Merkel said. "Freedom must be fought for. Freedom must be defended time and again. Freedom is the most valuable commodity in our political and social system."

Earlier, Ms Merkel and former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev stood shoulder to shoulder as they crossed a former fortified border crossing point between East and West Berlin to cheers of "Gorby! Gorby!"

Uwe Kross, 65, fought back tears as he recalled watching the drama unfold two decades ago, hours after a confused announcement that East Germany was lifting travel restrictions.

"That night, you couldn't stop people," Mr Kross said. "They lifted the barrier and everyone poured through.

"We saw it first on TV, normally it was very quiet up here, but that night we could hear the footsteps of those crossing, tap, tap, tap."

Ms Merkel, who was one of thousands to cross to the West that night, recalled that "before the joy of freedom came, many people suffered".

Last night, she praised Mr Gorbachev, with whom she shared an umbrella amid a crush of hundreds, eager for a glimpse of the man many still consider a hero for his role in pushing reform in the Soviet Union.

"You made this possible – you courageously let things happen, and that was much more than we could expect," she said.

Later, Chancellor Merkel also thanked Germany's neighbours to the east, and welcomed several leaders who had dared to stand up for democracy, including Poland's 1980s pro-democracy leader, Lech Walesa, and Miklos Nemeth, Hungary's last prime minister before communism collapsed.

Music from Bon Jovi and Beethoven recalled the joy of the border's opening, which led to German reunification less than a year later and the swift demolition of most of the 96-mile wall around West Berlin, a capitalist enclave inside East Germany.

In the decades that the wall stood, 136 people were killed trying to make their way across the border.



In pictures: The celebrations in Berlin yesterday



Politburo man's mistake that opened floodgates to the West

AS MILLIONS recall the night the Berlin Wall came down, few will remember the Politburo official whose throwaway remark helped to change the course of history.

At the end of a plodding news conference, Günter Schabowski offhandedly said East Germany was lifting restrictions on travel across its border with West Germany. Pressed on when the regulation would take effect, he looked down at his notes and stammered: "As far as I know, this enters into force… this is immediately, without delay."

Mr Schabowski has said he didn't know that the change was not supposed to be announced until the following morning, but by then it was too late, and East Berliners streamed towards border crossings.

Facing huge crowds and lacking instructions from above, border guards opened the gates – and the Wall was on its way into history.

Mr Schabowski has admitted there had been a breakdown in communication with his party boss, Egon Krenz. Later, he tried to clarify his comments and said the new rules would take hold at midnight, but events moved faster as the word spread.

At a remote crossing in south Berlin, Annemarie Reffert and her 15-year-old daughter made history by becoming the first East Germans citizens to cross the border.

Ms Reffert, now 66, remembers the East German soldiers being at a loss when she tried to cross the border.

"I argued that Schabowski said we were allowed to go over," she said. The border soldiers relented. A customs official was astonished that she had no luggage.

"All we wanted was to see if we really could travel," she said.


Sarkozy post sparks row

NICOLAS Sarkozy has been accused of placing a Facebook entry falsely suggesting he was in Berlin the day the wall began to fall.

French journalists who covered the events of 9 November, 1989, raised alarm bells over the note on the president's Facebook page, posted on the social networking website yesterday.

The "memories of the fall" post is topped by a picture of Mr Sarkozy appearing to chip away at a graffiti-covered wall.

However, newspaper archives suggest Mr Sarkozy went a week later. French websites and airwaves yesterday obsessed about Mr Sarkozy's whereabouts in 1989. The debate threatened to overshadow a costly concert and light show in Paris last night to celebrate the anniversary.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 10 November 2009 9:11 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 10/11/2009 00:59:38

Some of our immigrants must be happy, they were letting off fireworks where I live, and it was not for a late Guy Fawkes night, similarity?, a pause to think about that one.




2

,

10/11/2009 02:13:41
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3

First Virginian,

USA 10/11/2009 03:35:05
Angela Merkel of Germany is encouraging President Obama to sign the climate change treaty at Copenhagen so that the U.S. will be forced to turn over its wealth to third-world countries.

Merkel hasn't learned much from her experiences under a tyrannical communistic regime if she wants cap-and-trade imposed on Western nations.

"Tear down this wall!" was the statement President Reagan made to Gorbachev in 1987. Only twenty-nine months later the wall came down.

Seems that the U.S. bore the brunt of much of the Cold War with the U.S.S.R. and deserves better than this from former East Germans such as Merkel.
4

Film Star,

Beverly Hills 10/11/2009 03:43:56
Berlin would be a great place to be at the moment. The festivities must be fantastic.
5

Eon,

Saskatchewan 10/11/2009 05:10:29
For me, it was one of the happiest moments of my life," Ms Merkel told a crowd of tens of thousands packed around the Brandenburg Gate.

most be important to them if they can draw such a huge crowd.
6

Josiecamp,

San Francisco 10/11/2009 06:30:54
#3 First Virginian, President Reagan's ham perfomance and comical rhetoric had absolutely nothing to do with the opening of the Berlin Wall. Unfortunately we Americans are masters at believing our own propoganda. I lived and worked in Berlin from 1975 until 1994 as an administrator at a UNESCO project and was there for Ronnie's publicity shot. Earlier in 1989 the Hungarian government relaxed restrictions on their borders with East Germany and from that time until the opening of the Wall later in the year the Wall became a symbol but no longer a threat. East German military still demanded passports on subways and busses albeit much easier to gain access to picnics at Potsdam. Free access between East and West was still exploited and even on May-Day 1990 the wall was still patrolled by East and West German Guards. The joint East and West Communist (yes, West Berlin, always a strong left-wing city had a communist party) Parade along the KU-Dam and up the Unter-Der-Linden on that day was called the "coming together" and on the following Sunday I remember attending the Bolshoi Performance at the Komish Opera in East Berlin and the fabulous Palm Court Supper at The Grand hotel afterwards. I loved Berlin.
7

Iron Soul,

waiting for another gate to open 10/11/2009 06:34:39
Berlin was always a great place to be - beats any place i've been, incl USA. The tyranny was from the State, so easily changed out. When the tyranny is from the inanity of people with walls in their brains, there is no Hope. That's You I'm talking to, Virginian!
8

SouthernSkye,

Bonnie Bonn 10/11/2009 06:40:37
2 Translucent
How is Germany still under occupation? Do ellaborate.
9

U2,

Germany 10/11/2009 07:10:43
A truly fabulous event. Good luck to all the Germans around the world.
10

Requiem,

10/11/2009 07:20:58
This is a once in a lifetime event for most people in Germany. I only wish that Americans could attend as well to witness a real celebration in true European style. Unfortunately most Americans I believe have never been outside the USA. What a shame.
11

Horne,

UK 10/11/2009 07:42:00
Requiem,

"Unfortunately most Americans I believe have never been outside the USA. What a shame."

stated the obvious as true for most countries, what a shame for everyone.
12

couttie,

Alba 10/11/2009 08:18:11
the reunification of Germany is and was a major event in the lives of German people and Europe as a whole it cannot be played down.The removal of the wall was the beginning of that momentous change and cannot be denied its place history,and worth celebrating by all.
13

Boy Wonder,

10/11/2009 08:40:09
I will always remember the Fall of the Wall with nothing but untrammelled joy. The People of Eastern Europe were speaking and the one word was "Freedom!"

No matter what has happened afterwards, the totalitarian regimes behind the Iron Curtain I had grown up knowing, collapsed one by one and were consigned to the rubbish bin of history.

All regimes still in existence should take note ... your turn will come. Of that you can be assured!
14

Scotfree,

Erskine 10/11/2009 08:42:12
Headlines in the Stasi controlled Liepzieg Zietung the day before the fall
Key Services will pay over 9 million Marks cost of rebuiding wall warn German Communists
Honecker mortified by condolence letter
German Democrats Nuclear free policy will cost jobs
President Honecker visits Berlin North East campaign trail
Diageo boss in threat to workers if go on strike
Landslide postal vote predicted for German Communists in Berlin North East
15

Andronocles,

the Islands 10/11/2009 09:05:25
the fall of any dictatorship is a major event and good reason for people to rejoice and especially the people who had to live under it.
16

,

10/11/2009 09:07:48
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17

,

10/11/2009 09:16:12
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18

David McDade,

Forfar 10/11/2009 09:29:32
an important event in the history of modern Germany more so for them than anyone else it is right and proper that they should celebrate this event.
19

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 10/11/2009 10:07:03
The Fall of the Berlin Wall was one of the most important events of the 20th century and was in fact the concluding event of that century's two World Wars. Up to then the whole of Europe had been divided into military blocs and alliances, that spilled out into the Great War, the Second World War (which arose out of failure to conclude a proper settlement of WW1), and the Cold War with its Iron Curtain.

Ordinary men and women made the border between the east and west of Germany impossible to maintain and the GDR crumbled. Today we have a single Europe. Not only the EU but a Europe where its citizens are free to travel, to express their views and to live without fear. With the internet the Europeans can and do speak to each other without requiring permission from their governments. In sport and in music all European countries meet. We have the European Football tournaments and the Eurovision Song Contest that covers the whole of the continent and there is no country which we are not free to visit.

The fall of the Berlin Wall was an event worthy of commemoration by all Europeans as it was the wall in our heads that fell. And long after the politicians speeches are forgotten, we will remember the 1000 colourful polystyrene dominoes falling, looking like the great concrete slabs that divided our continent, reduced now in their symbolism to a child's game. That was inspired! After all the demons that Europe spawned in the 20th century they were destroyed by "Jeux sans frontieres"
20

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 10/11/2009 10:25:38
I went to see the border at Lubeck about a year before the wall fell. It was pretty eirie. The road on the Western side was made up and maintained right up to the border posts. It then dissappeared completely as it crossed the 200 yards or so until the East German border fence, whereupon it continued in an overgrown, broken state. I doubt the road had been maintained at all since the war.

It was like looking back in time to a world that was frozen in the late 1940s. Then a couple of Russian Jeeps arrived on the Eastern side of the border fence and the soldiers started looking at us through binoculars. We left shortly after.

About a year later, the border was open once again and no doubt the road I mentioned will now be joined up again and maintained to modern standards over all its length.
21

John Devoy,

10/11/2009 11:04:41
A great day for democracy and freedom.
22

Mrs Broon,

Scotland 10/11/2009 11:20:33
When the Berlin Wall came down and the end of the Cold War, I felt that surely this momentous occasion would herald the day that I would see the end of this disastrous Union between Scotland and England, but never mind, waiting for the Unionist Media to catch up with the people.
23

Elite,

10/11/2009 12:35:53
A great day for the Germans. Many risked their lives trying to escape to the West. Freedom is what people need and dream finally realized after the Wall was knocked down.
24

common sense voice,

10/11/2009 14:46:20
don't forget WWII!!
25

westview,

10/11/2009 15:35:00
It looks like the British Govrnment is cutting Scotland off from the rest of the world ,just as the Berlin Wall was used to control the free movement of people. Right now we are asked to produce passports etc when boarding internal flights in the UK. They are creeping in the use of identity documents at many stages of our UK society. It was a great feeling to travel across Europe without the need of border guards and documentation. Free Scotland from Westminster control before the UK Stazi state becomes 100% big brother.
26

First Virginian,

USA 10/11/2009 17:37:50
Article quote:

"Last night, she [Merkel] praised Mr Gorbachev,...the man many still consider a hero for his role in pushing reform in the Soviet Union."

Answer:

The Soviet Union's centrally controlled (communist)economy imploded due to its global military adventures culminating if its last failure to conquer Afghanistan.

It was U.S. taxpayers' monies that financed the Taliban and other Afghan "freedom fighters."

The Russian leaders merely put the best face on their failed economy by allowing Gorbachev to appear the hero in this national charade.

Ms Merkel gushed, "'You made this possible-you courageously let things happen, and that was much more than we could expect,' she said."

Being a socialist/communist at heart, Merkel managed not to call Gorbachev "Comrade."

What is galling to Americans is that Merkel is pressuring Obama to sign away our freedoms, sovereignty and prosperity with the Copenhagen cap-and-trade treaty.

Obviously, Merkel plans to be one of the socialist elites if this monumental global heist succeeds.

27

Carolyn 1,

10/11/2009 18:04:58
Virginian @26
Being a socialist/communist at heart, Merkel managed not to call Gorbachev "Comrade.""

Ooops. Have to correct you there-
Merkel, as an East German who personally experienced the crush of Communism, remembers well the hard learned lessons of living under that oppression. She is strongly opposed to communism; diplomatically Merkel does not have the 'cozy' relations with Russia that previous German PMs did. Her style is the opposite- she remains aloof and closed.

Thanking Gorbochov was the real thing, without the wall coming down, Merkel would still be under the communist boot, and certainly not the leader of an economic powerhouse.
28

Arminius,

Bei Uelzen 10/11/2009 19:16:32
#26 First Virginian,USA - Merkel is a socialist/communist at heart? Have you ever tried visiting planet earth? Merkel is the leader of Germany's largest conservative party and a strong ally of the USA (she even supported your invasion on Iraq whilst in opposition).
What is galling to Europeans is that so many Americans seem so ill-informed.
29

2dogs in D.C.,

10/11/2009 19:49:54
Req @ 10-Not only have I been out amongst the world,I lived and worked in the factories in what was then W.Germany.(Other travel divulged upon demand)
30

Josiecamp,

San Francisco 11/11/2009 01:33:19
#27 Carolyn 1; #28 Arminius and #31 Cutty Sark your points in rebuttal to #26 First Virginian are well founded. Should you wish to read my post #6 in which I declare in response to First Virginian's misguided epistle, you will note that I reminded her of how many Americans believe their countries propoganda. As a well travelled and enlightened American I am often embarrassed by the apathy of my country folks and their a-political renderings.
31

,

11/11/2009 02:21:10
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32

,

11/11/2009 02:55:49
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33

First Virginian,

USA 11/11/2009 03:36:51
#27 Carolyn 1 and #28 Arminius-

Actually, Angela Merkel is first and foremost a GLOBALIST at heart.

Socialism is the middle step toward communism in one country, while communism is the next step toward
globalism for the entire world.



Well informed people have read the globalists' nefarious plan found in the 181 page UN report titled:

"United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change
15 Sept. 2009"
"Ad Hoc Working Group on Long-Term Cooperative Action Under the Convention"

"Seventh session, Bangkok, 28 Sept to 9 Oct 2009, and Barcelona 2-6 November 2009"

You won't be able to Google the report under this title because it was removed from the UN website.

The original report can be found in PDF format by Googling "No Straitjacket" by Adam de Angeli, published 10/29/09 where it is can be clicked on "the plan" in red print.

The article by de Angeli discusses the UN plan for the Copenhagen meeting in December.

The article discusses the comments of a British Lord, Christopher Monckton, while giving a speech at St. Paul, Minnesota, regarding the possibility of the Copenhagen treaty taking precedence over the U.S. Constitution.

After wading through all the verbiage, one can see that the globalists are up to no good...including Chancellor Merkel...if you are an American who believes that the U.S. Constitution is and will be the law of the land.

The President of the United States and all elected officials have sworn an oath of office to uphold, protect and preserve the U.S. Constitution.

To attempt to contravene the Constitution is treason.
34

,

11/11/2009 03:59:13
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35

First Virginian,

USA 11/11/2009 04:28:55
#31 Cutty sark 2

There is no difference between Bush and Obama regarding their misguided foreign wars.

Name one thing that has changed for the better since Obama was elected?

The fall of the U.S.S.R.'s economy by its failure in Afghanistan should be a lesson our politicians should heed if they are not, in fact, hoping in their globalist hearts that this will be the case in the U.S. as well.
36

Annlass,

Toronto 11/11/2009 08:10:53
First Virginian #35 and #37 stop listening to Rush Limbaugh and the other nuts on Fox and please stop drinking that moonshine you produce in that hill-billy State. And by the way,Socialism is not a dirty word in educated and civilized societies.
37

Cutty sark 2,

11/11/2009 20:40:12
#35 First Virginian:

1. We agree on your first point.

2. World opinion of the US. A Democratic Government. The possibility of those US citizens living in absolute poverty to access medical treatment and health care at the point of need.

3. The fog of greed will cloud most politician's judgement.


38

First Virginian,

USA 11/11/2009 22:29:24
#36 Annlass,Toronto

"Socialism is not a dirty word in educated and civilized societies."

Answer:

Socialism designates an economic system that propounds legalized theft.

Western civilization's laws are based on the Bible, including the particular Ten Commandment that states, "Thou shalt not steal."

Stealing the property of one man to give to another man is theft.

Theft glossed over by any "ism" is still theft.

Truly civilized societies are moral and discountenance theft as being immoral.

Likewise, those who support socialism, communism and globalism are by definition thieves and scoundrels that deserve to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law--not elected to govern a free people.
39

First Virginian,

USA 12/11/2009 03:51:30
#37 Cutty sark 2-

Name just one US citizen that lives in abject poverty and that does not have access to medical treatment and health care at point of need.

You cannot do so because all US citizens have access to welfare and medical benefits if they are below the poverty line, which is far above what most of the rest of the world earns.

The Obama/Pelosi healthcare reform is all about impoverishing the great producing middle class of America so that they will become dependent on the federal government as well.

Globalists have high hopes that between increased taxation through government controlled health care and the UN planned transfer of the rest of the wealth of Americans through the cap-and-trade and climate change scam to corrupt third-world leaders, the US will fall like a ripe plum into their waiting one-world government.

Also, name one American that cares what the rest of the world thinks about the US.

The real question is what do Americans think of the rest of the world...especially Old Europe?

My answer is: Not very much!

40

Ballindarroch,

Highlands 12/11/2009 08:09:58
#39 First Virginian

Have you noticed that Cuty sark now has a 2 after her name in the last day>
41

Cutty sark 2,

12/11/2009 08:18:03
#39 First Virginian:

Medical benefits do not provide for all medical treatment or ongoing health care for long term medical conditions.

"Due to rising health insurance premiums, many small employers cannot afford to offer health benefits. Companies that do offer health insurance, often require employees to contribute a larger share toward their coverage. As a result, an increasing number of Americans have opted not to take advantage of job-based health insurance *because they cannot afford it.*

"The uninsured are increasingly paying “up front” -- before services will be rendered. When they are unable to pay the full medical bill in cash at the time of service, they can be turned away *except in life-threatening circumstances.*

Access to an emergency room for uninsured patients does not qualify as *access to coordinated care.* While physicians are required to stabilize patients in an emergency, *they are not required to treat the condition comprehensively.*"

Source: http://www.nchc.org/facts/coverage.shtml

"Also, name one American that cares what the rest of the world thinks about the US[....]what do Americans think of the rest of the world...especially Old Europe?[....]Not very much!"

Therein lies one of your future problems.


42

,

12/11/2009 08:20:59
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43

First Virginian,

USA 12/11/2009 18:34:21
#41 Cutty sark 2-

The enumerated powers in the U.S. Constitution do not give Congress the power to legislate on health-care for Americans.

The right of individual Americans to determine how to
spend their money rests with the people.

The people in each state decide through their elected representatives how they want to handle medical and health care issues within their state.

The Obama/Pelosi health care bill is patently unconstitutional from beginning to end because health care is none of their business.

The federal government has been been transgressing the U.S. Constitution since the War Between the States when Lincoln used the U.S. military to invade Virginia and the other Confederate states.

Only by the people of the United States educating themselves regarding their Constitution can they take the action necessary to restore it as the "law of the land" that is was intended to be.

George Washington spoke of foreign influence:

"Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence, (I conjure you to believe me fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake; since history and experience prove the foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government." (Washington's Farewell Address, 1796)

Globalists such as Germany's Merkel and the EU are part of this insidious foreign influence that Washington warned against.

Old Europe will never change. It will always be the fertile ground for tyrants, dictators and despots of every description.

Globalists are just the new wave of Old Europe attempting to steal the wealth of nations and to rule the world.
44

Cutty sark 2,

12/11/2009 19:29:02
So, First Virginian, you are saying that the US is a nation of anti collectivists. That is an alien concept to me in that I believe in the strongest supporting the weakest, this for me is indicative of a civilised society. In terms of this philosophy I hope that Old Europe doesn't change, it forms part of the EUs founding principles, along with striving for peace in the region and beyond.

"[...]attempting to steal the wealth of nations and to rule the world."

The same has been said of the US.
45

First Virginian,

USA 13/11/2009 01:42:58
#44 Cutty sark 2-

Collectivism is synonymous with socialism and communism since it means that the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution are in the hands of the government rather than that of private individuals.

If you believe in "the strongest supporting the weakest" in a society you are not a collectivist.

Joseph Stalin was a collectivist who created a man-made famine in the Ukraine that starved millions to death and turned all privately owned farms into collectives.

You seem to be confused in your thinking which is not unusual in the weak-minded who support legalized theft of property in any instance.

The United States Constitution protects individual rights and property, but, unfortunately, a number of U.S. citizens in elected offices are collectivists/globalists, which is the crux of our present problem.




46

Cutty sark 2,

13/11/2009 07:43:13
#45 First Virginian:

That wiki style interpretation does not address the broad spectrum of the philosophy.

I did not state that I was a collectivist.

As your responses have now gone down the personal attack route I'll end the debate at this point.
47

First Virginian,

USA 14/11/2009 22:56:24
#46 Cutty sark 2

"I did not state that I was a collectivist."

Cutty, what you DID say at post #44 is:

"...you are saying that the US is a nation of anti collectivists. That is an alien concept to me in that I believe in the strongest supporting the weakest, this is indicative of a civilized society."

You said that anti collectivism was not your belief because your philosophy believes the opposite which must be collectivism.

The fact is anti collectivists do believe in the strongest helping the weaker through individual, personal charity rather than the stronger government stealing from the taxpayers to give to the weaker poor.

If you were saying that you are not a collectivist you were not saying what you meant, which is a personal problem.

If you consider reasoned responses to your personal statements as personal attacks you probably should end the debate and refuse to take it up in the future.

Kind regards,

Virginian


 

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